EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
                       PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                     INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
                        ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=================================================

                                VOLUME 4
                               __________

                      EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                                  1953

                       MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003

 

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session

               JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan                 FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii              TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey     GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia                 THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota               JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
                                     PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
           Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
              Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
                     Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                               

                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS

                     CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii,             SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey     GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia                 THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota               JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
                                     PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
            Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                 Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
                     Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk



                   COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
                      83rd Congress, First Session

                JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota          JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine          HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho             HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois   JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland       STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan          ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
                   Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
                    Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                               

                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS

                JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota          JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois   HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan          STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
                       Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
                  Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
                      Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk

                           assistant counsels

Robert F. Kennedy                                    Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia                                   Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell                                  C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley

                             investigators

                           Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins                                   James N. Juliana
                   G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
               Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
               Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
                   La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant

----------
  \1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
 

C O N T E N T S
----------                             
Volume 4

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 23, 1953
Testimony of:

• Sidney Glassman

• David Ayman

• Lawrence Friedman

• Elba Chase Nelson

• Herbert S. Bennett

• Joseph H. Percoff

• Lawrence Aguimbau

• Perry Seay

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 26, 1953
    Statements of:

• Benjamin Zuckerman

• Hans Inslerman

• Thomas K. Cookson

• Doris Seifert

• Lafayette Pope

• Ralph Iannarone

• Saul Finkelstein

• Abraham Lepato

• Irving Rosenheim

• Richard Jones, Jr.

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 27, 1953
    Statements of:

• Edward Brody

• Max Katz

• Henry Jasik

• Capt. Benjamin Sheehan

• Russell Gaylord Ranney

• Susan Moon

• Peter Rosmovsky

• Sarah Omanson

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 30, 1953
    Statements of:

• Harold Ducore

• Stanley R. Rich

• Nathan Sussman

• Louis Leo Kaplan

• Carl Greenblum

• Sherrod East

• Jacob Kaplan

• James P. Scott

• Bernard Lee

• Melvin M. Morris

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 2, 1953
    Statements of:

• William Johnstone Jones

• Murray Narell

• Samuel Sack

• Joseph Bert

• Raymond Delcamp

• Leo Fary

• Irving Stokes

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 3, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Abraham Chasanow

• Joseph H. Percoff

• Solomon Greenberg

• Isadore Solomon

• William Saltzman

• Samuel Sack

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 4, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Victor Rabinowitz

• Wendell Furry

• Diana Wolman

• Abraham Brothman

• Norman Gaboriault

• Harvey Sachs

• Sylvia Berke

• Benjamin Wolman

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 5, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Harry Hyman

• Vivian Glassman Pataki

• Gunnar Boye

• Alexander Hindin

• Samuel Paul Gisser

• Stanley Berinsky

• Ralph Schutz

• Henry Shoiket

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 16, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth

• Samuel Snyder

• Ernest Pataki

• Albert Socol

• Joseph K. Crevisky

• Ignatius Giardina

• Leon Schnee

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 17, 1953
    Testimony of:

• James Weinstein

• Harry Grundfest

• Harry Pastorinsky

• Emery Pataki

• Charles Jassik

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 25, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Morris Savitt

• Albert Fischler

• James J. Matles

• Bertha Singer

• Terry Rosenbaum

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Michael Sidorovich

• Ann Sidorovich

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10, 1953
    Statement of:

• Samuel Levine

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 14, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Albert Shadowitz

• Pvt. David Linfield

• Shirley Shapiro

• Sidney Stolberg

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 15, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Ezekiel Heyman

• Lester Ackerman

• Sigmond Berger

• Ruth Levine

• Bennett Davies

• John D. Saunders

• Norman Spiro

• Carter Lemuel Burkes

• John R. Simkovich

• Linda Gottfried

• Joseph Paul Komar

• John Anthony DeLuca

• Sam Morris

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 16, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Wilbur LePage

• Martin Levine

• John Schickler

• David Lichter

• Albert Burrows

• Seymour Butensky

• Kenneth John Way

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 17, 1953
    Statements of:

• Irving Israel Galex

• Harry Lipson

• Seymour Janowsky

• Harry M. Nachmais

• Curtis Quinten Murphy

• Martin Schmidt

• David Holtzman

Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 18, 1953
    Statements of:

• Joseph John Oliveri

• Philip Joseph Shapiro

• Samuel Martin Segner

• Joseph Linton Layne

• Harry William Levitties

Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, October 19, 1953
    Testimony of:

• William H. Taylor

• Alvin W. Hall

Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, October 21, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Elizabeth Bentley

Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, November 10, 1953
    Statement of:

• Walter F. Frese

Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, November 12, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Jean A. Arsenault

• Sidney Friedlander

• Theresa Mary Chiaro

• Albert J. Bottisti

• Anna Jegabbi

• Emma Elizabeth Drake

• Henry Daniel Hughes

• Abden Francisco

• Joseph Arthur Gebhardt

• Emanuel Fernandez

• Robert Pierson Northrup

• Lawrence Leo Gebo

• William J. Mastriani

• Gordon Belgrave

• Arthur Lee Owens

• John Sardella

• Rudolph Rissland

Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, November 13, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Lillian Krummel

• Dewey Franklin Brashear

• Arthur George

• Higeno Hermida

• Paul F. Hacko

• Alex Henry Klein

• Harold S. Rollins

• John Starling Brooks

Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, November 18, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Karl T. Mabbskka

• James John Walsh

• Nathaniel Mills

• Robert Goodwin

• Henry Canning Archdeacon

• Donald Herbert Morrill

• Francis F. Peacock

• William Richmond Wilder

• Donald R. Finlayson

• Theodore Pappas

• George Homes

• Alexander Gregory

• Witoutos S. Bolys

• Benjamin Alfred

• Witulad Pierarski

Transfer of the Ship "Greater Buffalo,'' December 8, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Paul D. Page, Jr.

• George J. Kolowich

Personnel Practices in Government--Case of Telford Taylor, December 8, 1953
    Testimony of:

• Philip Young
   

              ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE

    [Editor's note.--Sidney Glassman testified in public
session on December 16, 1953. Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) and
Louise Sarant (1923-1997) testified in public on December 11.
David Ayman (1907-1999), Lawrence Friedman, Elba Chase Nelson
(1889-1967), Herbert S. Bennett, Norman Levinson (1912-1975),
Lawrence Aguimbau, and Perry Seay did not testify in public.]
                              ----------                       

TESTIMONY OF DAVID AYMAN

    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman. May we have your full name for the record?
    Mr. Ayman. David Ayman, A-y-m-a-n. 1612 Lincoln Place,
Brooklyn.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Ayman, were you ever in the Signal
Corps?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. In what year?
    Mr. Ayman. 1942 to 1946. Let me clarify that. I was in the
Signal Corps but in the last year I was attached to the air
force.
    Mr. Cohn. You were in the Signal Corps but from 1945 to
1946 you were attached to the air force?
    Mr. Ayman. That is right.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you stationed at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
    Mr. Ayman. Two years: 1942 to 1944.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you stationed when in the air force?
    Mr. Ayman. Hawaii.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work down at Monmouth?
    Mr. Ayman. I was working in Officer Candidate School.
    Mr. Cohn. For two years?
    Mr. Ayman. I was drafted in April 1942. I took my basic
training, three or four weeks specialized training, then was
sent to Officers Candidate School and I got a commission in
October, approximately, 1942 and then I was assigned to
instruct at OCS. That was the first assignment.
    Mr. Cohn. What do you do now?
    Mr. Ayman. I am a school teacher.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you teach at the Samuel Tilden High School?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
    Mr. Ayman. I have been at Samuel Tilden since 1936.
    Mr. Cohn. You have taught there continuously since 1936?
    Mr. Ayman. Except time in the army or leave of absence for
official business.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Teachers Union? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Accused of Communist leanings, the Teachers Union of New York
was expelled from the American Federation of Teachers in 1940 and
affiliated with the United Public Workers of America, a CIO union. In
1952 and 1953 it was investigated by the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been associated with any Communists
in the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. Bella Dodd is a Communist.\2\ That is the only
one officially I would know. I know no other one of my own
knowledge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Dr. Bella V. Dodd (1904-1969) served as legislative
representative for the Teachers Union from 1938 to 1944, before
formally joining the Communist party and being elected to its national
committee. She was expelled from the party in 1949, and later discussed
her experiences in testimony before the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee and in an autobiography, School of Darkness (New York:
P.J. Kenedy, 1954).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Cohn. Do you have reasonable grounds to believe there
are others who are Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. In other words, with the exception of Bella Dodd,
you have never known a person you believed to be a Communist in
the Teachers Union. Is that right?
    Mr. Ayman. That is right, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you ever represent any teachers, Teachers
Union members, with the New York Board of Education in any
respect?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. When was that?
    Mr. Ayman. I represented some people before Moskoff, who
does some work for the Board of Education. He is the counsel
for the committee for the Board of Education interrogating
individuals, I presume, on the basis of information he has
about them.
    Mr. Cohn. And you represented some of those persons?
    Mr. Ayman. As teacher-advisor.
    Mr. Cohn. Were any of those persons Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. None of them ever told me they were Communists
and I never asked them.
    Mr. Cohn. Did any of them claim the Fifth Amendment when
questioned?
    Mr. Ayman. No. The Fifth Amendment was not claimed in my
presence.
    Mr. Cohn. Was the Fifth Amendment ever claimed?
    Mr. Ayman. No, not while I was there.
    Mr. Cohn. I don't care whether you were there. Did you ever
hear that any of those persons you represented as teacher-
advisor claimed the Fifth Amendment?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I never heard it.
    Mr. Cohn. How many people did you so represent?
    Mr. Ayman. Eight or ten.
    Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
    Mr. Ayman. Let's see. The last one was Lee Naguid. That is
the last one I represented. The one before that was Louis
Auerbach. Another one I represented was Samuel Chapman. The
other names don't occur to me at the moment. Those are the last
three.
    One other, Mr. Klein. I don't know what his first name is.
    Mr. Cohn. Were any of those teachers suspended as a result
of the hearing before Mr. Moskoff?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. One, Auerbach. I didn't represent Mr.
Auerbach before Mr. Moskoff, when he appeared. I represented
Mr. Auerbach before Mr. Perch.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, how many of these were suspended as a
result----
    Mr. Ayman. The only one I know, can think of, is Mr.
Auerbach. The others have not been suspended.
    Mr. Cohn. Why was Mr. Auerbach suspended?
    Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer any questions that Mr.
Perch asked him.
    Mr. Cohn. Didn't he claim the Fifth Amendment?
    Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership.
    Mr. Cohn. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Did that give you reasonable grounds to believe
he was a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't think somebody who refuses to answer
the question of whether or not they are a Communist, you don't
think that furnishes reasonable grounds to believe that person
is a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. It is hard for me to make a judgment of a thing
like that. There are things a person may believe in. He may
feel this type of thing doesn't involve this type of activity.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe Communists should teach in the New
York school system?
    Mr. Ayman. I believe a person ought to be judged.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe a Communist party member should
teach in the New York City school system? That is a very simple
question. Just answer ``yes'' or ``no.''
    Mr. Ayman. Well, my own feeling about this, that answer is
not quite as simple as you put it.
    Mr. Cohn. Answer ``yes'' or ``no,'' then you can make any
explanation you care to give us.
    Mr. Ayman. My answer would be ``yes,'' provided, of course,
this person did not engage in activities in the school system
in which he used his position to officially propagandize for
the Communist party or any other group.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think that a member of the Communist party
would not use any position he held to propagandize and attempt
in every way to aid the cause of the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, I would say this. Any person who believed
strongly in any position he held, it might be possible for him,
not necessarily and I believe necessarily that he would not
actually use his position to do that. It is possible for him to
do that.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe it is possible for a Communist
party member not to use any position he holds?
    Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that?
    Mr. Cohn. I think you should be. You are teaching children
in the public schools in New York.
    Mr. Ayman. My function as advisor was to see that these
people don't get rattled. I am not legal counsel. I can give
them no legal advice. They wanted somebody to go up there and
make sure they were represented.
    The Chairman. Is it your position that a man who is a
member of the Communist party should not be barred from a
teaching job unless it is first proven that he is using his
membership-unless it is proved he is teaching communism to his
students?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. That was not my position.
    The Chairman. Do you think that mere membership in the
Communist party and nothing else should bar him from teaching?
    Mr. Ayman. Off-hand, I would say no.
    The Chairman. You would say it takes more than that?
    Mr. Ayman. That is my opinion. My feeling is this.
    The Chairman. What more would it take?
    Mr. Ayman. Some act, some either technical act as a teacher
in the classroom or in connection with the school system which
he used to actually propagandize in one form or another about
this proposition that should cause him to be eliminated.
    The Chairman. You realize the more clever the Communist is,
the less possibility of catching him in the acts?
    Mr. Ayman. That is possible.
    The Chairman. You might catch the dumb ones, but the clever
ones you wouldn't catch. You would say that unless you catch
the Communist, know that he attended Communist meetings, unless
you catch him in the overt act of propagandizing, unless you
catch him doing something like that, you should keep him on as
a teacher?
    Mr. Ayman. Not only Communist, anybody else. Fascists. I
believe in some other kinds of systems, the same thing is true
about those individuals as well.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about the Communist
movement?
    Mr. Ayman. Not enough to make judgment about it.
    The Chairman. Do you know what is meant by being under
Communist party discipline?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, in my mind, under discipline, he accepts
the dictates from the Communist party. I assume it means----
    The Chairman. Do you mean in good standing of the party and
must obey orders?
    Mr. Ayman. I can't make such a statement. I am not a
member.
    The Chairman. If you were told now--witnesses have
testified over and over, witnesses the government considers
reliable men, who were active in the Communist party--Bella
Dodd whom you knew testified such is the case; that a member in
good standing is under Communist discipline and obeys orders.
Would you have any reason to doubt that? Do you have any
information to the contrary?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I do not have information to the
contrary.
    The Chairman. Don't you think a teacher, regardless of how
good a teacher he might be, should be a free agent and should
not be under the discipline of any organizations, particularly
the Communist party dominated by Moscow?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I believe that not only about those
but everybody else.
    The Chairman. Do you still say someone under Communist
party discipline should be allowed to teach, realizing they are
not free agents, no freedom of expression but expression of the
Communist line. Do you still say you think such a man should be
teaching our children unless he is caught in the overt act?
    Mr. Ayman. My own feeling is, as I said before, that is a
belief I have. Whether it is a good belief or a bad one, it
would be a question of somebody besides myself to be able to
answer.
    The Chairman We are not trying to change your beliefs. We
are just curious as to what your beliefs are on communism. We
are not concerned with your other beliefs. We are concerned
with your belief or attitude toward the international
conspiracy.
    Mr. Ayman. The international conspiracy, I am not in a
position to make judgment. I am not sufficiently well
acquainted with it. It is not in my field. If it is, I think
government officials knowing these facts, being aware of it,
they ought to take appropriate action. If they can show that
persons have performed acts as part of this conspiracy, well,
obviously they ought to do something about it.
    Mr. Jones. Are you married?
    Mr. Ayman. No, not now.
    Mr. Jones. You were before?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    Mr. Jones. Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. I have no way of knowing.
    Mr. Jones. Do you have any children?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Jones. I assume if you did have children you would not
object to them receiving their entire education under a
Communist teacher?
    Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't say that.
    Mr. Jones. You said it.
    Mr. Ayman. If these people were Communists and if they did
not use their position to propagandize for their beliefs, I
would have no objection to them any more than a person who is a
Fascist not using his position. I would say it was perfectly
all right, American principal. If they were using that
position, then I would say that person should not be permitted
to teach my children or anybody else's.
    The Chairman. In other words, you wouldn't object to having
a Communist teacher teach your children?
    Mr. Ayman. No.
    The Chairman Would you have any objection to having a man
convicted of rape a number of times, even though be was not
caught committing rape in the classroom----
    Mr. Ayman. I don't think you can make that comparison. I
assume a man convicted of rape would be sentenced to jail for a
number of years and not permitted to get a license. I don't see
how those two things are relevant.
    The Chairman. Suppose he did not advocate rape in the
classroom, but had been convicted several times; that he was
not in jail. Would you have any objection?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't know how he would get a license. If he
didn't use his position in the classroom, I don't see what the
objection would be.
    The Chairman. If you were looking for a babysitter, you and
your wife were going out----
    Mr. Ayman. I would think twice before using him as a
babysitter.
    The Chairman. Do you still have a reserve commission in the
army?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Have you ever been in the Reserves?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You were never in the army?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I was in the army. I was in what is
called AUS.
    The Chairman. What is AUS?
    Mr. Ayman. Army of the United States as distinguished from
the United States Army--people commissioned through the ranks
through OCS or some such things.
    The Chairman. Did you have a commission?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman What was your rank?
    Mr. Ayman. I came out as a 1st lieutenant.
    The Chairman You no longer have the reserve commission?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman No connection with the army?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Jones. What do you teach at Samuel Tilden?
    Mr. Ayman. Mathematics.
    Mr. Jones. Would you agree with this statement; that the
Communist party is a conspiracy to accomplish the violent
overthrow of this government?
    Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment of this.
I don't know enough about this business.
    Mr. Jones. Sir, you have been a teacher a good number of
years. Don't you read the newspapers?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes. I know people believe it. I know it is
possible to believe it. On the basis of my own knowledge, my
own analysis of this thing, I don't have information to be able
to make such a judgment.
    Mr. Rainville. How would you determine whether they were
using their position to propagandize on your children or any
children in your care.
    Mr. Ayman. Somebody would have to observe these
individuals.
    Mr. Rainville. But this individual would not be you? Who is
going to do that?
    Mr. Ayman. It is the supervisor's function to observe the
teacher's fitness to teach.
    Mr. Rainville. But your particular job while you are a
teacher was to represent those teachers against such
supervisory controls? You said you were a Teachers Union
representative.
    Mr. Ayman. I was advisor to those people, and as such I
appeared before the supervisory body, Mr. Moskoff, to help the
teachers. I didn't come to protect these people. My function
was, if I thought or they thought, the individual, that he was
being asked questions which he felt wasn't appropriate, he had
a right to ask me my reaction. My reaction in almost ever case
was: ``This is your job here.''
    The Chairman. Did you advise Auerbach?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I didn't advise him.
    The Chairman. The question was: Did you advise Auerbach to
answer in regard to his Communist connections?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did he discuss that with you?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You were there as his advisor?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, I was his advisor. As a matter of fact, I
met him five minutes before we went in to see Mr. Perch. In
other words, here is what happened. Somebody would call and ask
me if I would be willing to appear with this individual and I
would say, ``Well, this person is entitled to be represented,
to get some person who will represent them, and I will be
willing to go.'' In most cases I hadn't seen some of these
people. Met them maybe five minutes before we went into Mr.
Moskoff's office.
    The Chairman. After Mr. Auerbach made his statement, did
you make any statement in his behalf before Mr. Moskoff or
whoever was there?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Do I understand that you did nothing
whatsoever in the hearing of Mr. Auerbach?
    Mr. Ayman. Nothing officially.
    Mr. Auerbach, when he was questioned he called me aside and
asked me if he should answer. My answer to him was: ``You are
involved. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to
do.'' The word advisor, in this case, is not technically
correct verbiage. I can't really give a person advice which
might involve a legal question. I am not qualified.
    The Chairman. In any event, when he called you aside and
asked you whether he should answer these questions about
alleged Communist activities, you didn't advise him to answer
or not to answer?
    Mr. Ayman. That is correct.
    The Chairman. So you didn't feel he should answer?
    Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I wasn't in a position to make judgment.
    The Chairman. Do you think now that teachers should tell
Mr. Moskoff when they are called before him whether or not they
are Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. If these people feel they want to tell him.
    The Chairman. I am asking you whether you think they
should?
    Mr. Ayman. For myself, I would answer.
    The Chairman. You are an advisor-teacher and I am asking
you a simple question. Do you think teachers who are called
before Mr. Moskoff should tell him truthfully about their
Communist party activities? Do you think that a teacher called
before Mr. Moskoff or any responsible member of the Board of
Education should truthfully tell about any Communist activities
in which they have been engaged or do you think they should
refuse?
    Mr. Ayman. Each one must decide. It is a very hard thing to
tell somebody. Each person must decide on the basis of his own
convictions as to what answer he should give. I can't put
myself in the position of telling these people what they should
or should not do.
    The Chairman. Do you still think you are a competent
advisor to these teachers if you don't know?
    Mr. Ayman. I am a competent advisor only in the sense that
I would go and appear before Mr. Moskoff to give advice. As to
whether or not they should answer or not, that I am not
qualified to do.
    The Chairman. As of today you can't decide whether all
teachers should be required to honestly tell about their
Communist activities to responsible superiors?
    Mr. Ayman. That is substantially what I said before.
    The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend meetings of the
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Did you ever attend meetings then or later
that you thought were Communist party meetings or dominated by
Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't believe so.
    The Chairman. Would you say that the Teachers Union is
Communist dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. Some people say it is. From my own knowledge I
am not prepared to make such a statement.
    The Chairman. You are a member of that union?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    The Chairman. Do you hold any office?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. And the general feeling is that the greater
part of the teachers are Communists in the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. There are a number of people who believe that.
    The Chairman. That is the general feeling, isn't it?
    Mr. Ayman. I would say ``yes.''
    The Chairman. Do you know that teachers who are anti-
Communist do not join that union?
    Mr. Ayman. Probably so, although there are people in it who
are anti-Communist. I don't know.
    The Chairman. You are still a member?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman. How long have you been a member?
    Mr. Ayman. I have been a member of the union since 1932 or
1933.
    The Chairman. Do you intend to retain your membership?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, unless it is declared illegal. From my
point of view it represents the best interests of teachers.
    The Chairman. Did you ever ask Mr. Auerbach whether he was
a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you ever ask him whether he taught
communism in the schools?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. But you still felt you should represent him
and not ask him whether he was a Communist or not and not ask
him whether he taught Communism in the schools?
    Mr. Ayman. It is a difficult problem in the school system.
People who are called up before Mr. Moskoff have to have
someone represent them. They are asked to bring along a
teacher-adviser for any reason. If you struck some child you
have a right to be represented by a teacher-advisor. It is
obvious that lots of people would not go up as an advisor,
because as you can gather from this, it is implied that one who
goes up is himself a Communist.
    The Chairman. You said you went up as advisor, yet you did
not advise them. The man called you back and asked you for your
advice as to whether he should tell the truth about his
Communist activities, and you say you refused to advise him.
    What did you advise him on?
    Mr. Ayman. I gave no advice. My function is if there is any
difficulties.
    The Chairman. What kind of difficulty?
    Mr. Ayman. Suppose they would say, ``Are you a member of
the Communist party?''
    The Chairman. He did, didn't he?
    Mr. Ayman. Either he would turn to me and say, ``Should I
answer that question'' and I would say, ``That is up to you.''
    The Chairman. So you wouldn't advise him?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. So you weren't there to advise?
    Mr. Ayman. The technical term they used was ``advisor.''
That is the term they used. If they said teacher-
representative, it would be more in keeping with the meaning of
the way the person does.
    The Chairman. Did you talk to Mr. Moskoff in his behalf?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you talk to anyone in his behalf?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. In all cases where you represented people as
advisor, were they accused of Communist activities?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, what they were accused of, Mr. Moskoff and
in one case Mr. Perch, that was Mr. Auerbach, the statement was
made that there was reason to believe they were connected with
the Communist party or Communist activities.
    The Chairman. In other words, all cases represented by you,
they were accused of Communist activities.
    Mr. Ayman. The statement was made that there was reason to
believe. There was not an overt statement in some cases that
they were actually engaged in Communist party activities.
    The Chairman. Did you ask them before you advised them
whether the statements were true?
    Mr. Ayman. They weren't given any charges----
    The Chairman. Call it statement, allegations----
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir, I did not.
    The Chairman. So you felt you could advise them without
knowing if the charges were true?
    Mr. Ayman. The word advise--I was simply a representative
not to perform technical duties.
    The Chairman. How could you advise then if you didn't ask
them?
    Mr. Ayman. That is not the function of the so-called
representative.
    The Chairman. You say you have never been solicited to join
the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Maybe Bella Dodd may have solicited me.
    The Chairman. Don't you remember?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you ever pay any money that went to the
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Any Communist papers?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you belong to any Communist fronts, other
than the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to any organizations
that have been listed by the attorney general as subversive or
Communist fronts?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. I think that is all.
    Mr. Rainville. It is my understanding you did not think it
was objectionable to have Communist teachers so long as he
didn't use his position to propagandize, so if these teachers
said they were Communists, you would still have defended them
since you think that is all right?
    Mr. Ayman. If they did not use their position in any way.
    Mr. Rainville. Then that is the reason you didn't ask them.
You didn't care?
    Mr. Ayman. I certainly wasn't going to ask them.
    The Chairman. Weren't you interested in whether they were
teaching their students communism?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You weren't interested?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. I thought you said that was the one condition
under which Communists should not be allowed to teach and you
didn't even ask.
    Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment. I don't
watch them as teachers. I am a classroom teacher myself. That
is the function of those who are supervisors.
    Mr. Cohn. The Teachers Union is Communist-dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. That is what people say. I think it isn't. I
think I made that clear. The Teachers Union represents the best
interests of teachers and as long as it does that, I think it
is a good organization.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Rose Russell?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't know whether she is or not.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is?
    Mr. Ayman. You can ask me about anybody. Unless I know
whether they are or not I have no evidence, no way of judging.
    Mr. Cohn. Unless you have evidence of your own you never
pronounce judgment on anything?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You didn't answer counsel's question as to
whether or not you think the Communist Teachers Union is
Communist-dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. I say people believe----
    The Chairman. Do you think it is? You have been in it a
long time?
    Mr. Ayman. From my experience I don't think so. My own
opinion. As long as it represents the best interest of
teachers----
    Mr. Rainville. You have been in the Teachers Union since
1932 but I thought you said you didn't become a teacher until
1936?
    Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I didn't say that. I started to teach in
1927. They asked me about Tilden High School. I don't think I
started to teach there until 1936.
    The Chairman. You can consider yourself under subpoena and
we will notify your counsel when you are to return.
 

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSELS,
             WILLIAM A. CONSIDINE AND JACK FISHER)

    The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? In the matter
now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. Friedman. I do.
    The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
    Mr. Considine. William A. Considine, 744 Broad Street,
Newark.
    The Chairman. Will the witness give his full name for the
record?
    Mr. Friedman. Lawrence Friedman.
    The Chairman. Who is the other gentleman?
    Mr. Considine. Associate counsel.
    The Chairman. What is his name?
    Mr. Considine. Jack Fisher.
    The Chairman. I don't think either of you gentlemen have
appeared before the committee before, so I will run over the
rules of the committee briefly.
    The witness can advise with counsel any time he cares to.
He can interrupt the testimony. If you want a confidential
meeting with your client, we will arrange a room for that at
any time during the meeting.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you at Belock Instrument Corporation now?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
there?
    Mr. Friedman. Almost three years.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
    Mr. Friedman. Reeves Instrument Corporation.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long?
    Mr. Friedman. Five years.
    Mr. Cohn. And what did you do before that?
    Mr. Friedman. I was in the navy, sir, for two years. I
worked at Camp Evans Signal Corps Laboratory for two years.
    The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the navy?
    Mr. Friedman. I was an electronics technicians mate in the
navy.
    Mr. Cohn. When were you at Evans?
    Mr. Friedman. 1942 to 1944.
    Mr. Cohn. When you were at Evans who were you living with?
    Mr. Friedman. Ralph Dunn.
    Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
    Mr. Friedman. I was living at a rooming house in Ashbury
Park and I also lived in a dormitory at the camp installation.
    Mr. Cohn. Who else lived at that rooming house?
    Mr. Friedman. Nobody associated with the laboratory. There
were several other girls and boys, but nobody associated with
the lab.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir. I met him when I was working at
Reeves.
    Mr. Cohn. When was that?
    Mr. Friedman. I worked at Reeves from 1946 to 1951 and it
was during that period.
    Mr. Cohn. You had not known him before?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work?
    Mr. Friedman. I worked on the third floor in the tool
design department and he worked on the second floor in the main
engineering office.
    Mr. Cohn. And did you know him socially at all?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir, not at all.
    Mr. Cohn. How frequently did you see him around Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Very infrequently. We were not associated on
the same project.
    Mr. Cohn. While Sobell was at Reeves were you handling any
project for the Signal Corps?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Any classified?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did they involve radar?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any of those projects?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work on the same project Sobell
was working on?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you familiar with the projects in general
terms?
    Mr. Friedman. I know what the projects are, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know the project Sobell worked on?
    Mr. Friedman. I only knew it by name. I was not closely
associated with those projects.
    Mr. Cohn. What do you recall?
    Mr. Friedman. I believe it was a plotting board program for
the Air Corps. As far as I know, that is the only project he
was associated with.
    Mr. Cohn. What else did they have there at the time you
were there?
    Mr. Friedman. Well, of course we had many programs. We were
doing the Mark 5 Bomb Site for the navy. Of course, we had
these Signal Corps programs and the plotting board program.
    Mr. Cohn. What is the plotting board program?
    Mr. Friedman. Sir, I am not too familiar with it, just in
general terms. It was plotting the inside of a trailer.
    May I ask one question? Some of this information may be
classified.
    It was associated with 584 Signal Corps Radar. That is just
about all I know about the program, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with 527 and 627?
    Mr. Friedman. I don't know what that means. I am not
familiar with those designations.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, in connection with the Signal Corps project,
would people come from time to time from Evans Laboratory down
to Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did any of them speak with Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. Not that I know of, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. You can recall no instance where anyone came from
Monmouth and spoke with Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. No, I don't, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
    Mr. Friedman. Aaron Coleman was the project engineer on the
414A project. I was on the 414A program. I was one of the
mechanical engineers on the program.
    The Chairman. As you perhaps know, the army intelligence
raided Coleman's home and picked up some forty-three secret
documents which would be of great value to the enemy.
    Do you have any knowledge of his having removed those
documents?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir. No knowledge whatsoever.
    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Friedman, do you know a man by the name of
Carl Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. When did you meet Mr. Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. I would say 1949. He was associated in some
fashion with the 414A program and 414A Signal Corps project.
During the demonstration of the program I recall he did come up
to Reeves Instrument Corporation to witness the demonstration.
    Mr. Cohn. When he came to Reeves did you see him in the
company of Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir, I didn't.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Sobell witness the demonstration?
    Mr. Friedman. I don't think so.
    Mr. Cohn. How many people worked at Reeves then?
    Mr. Friedman. I think, at that time, around one thousand.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether Greenblum was associated
with Sobell up there?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir. I do not.
    Mr. Cohn. That was the first time you met Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him better?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Is that the only time you saw him?
    Mr. Friedman. Subsequent to that time I have met him twice.
At the present time the Belock Instrument Corporation is about
to complete a Signal Corps contract and Greenblum was in some
small fashion associated with this program, associated with one
phase of the program. I believe I had occasion to meet him
twice.
    Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Belock, head of your company, formerly
with Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Was he the one who hired Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. I can't answer that.
    Mr. Cohn. Is this Belock Company doing classified work with
the Signal Corps now?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I don't have anything more of this
witness.
    The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist
League?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You never attended Young Communist League
meetings?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Never contributed to it?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. I may say in your presence that we will not
give you to the press or anyone else unless you give it
yourself. We have got to call people who are loyal in order to
pick up the loose ends. If your name is given out some people
might assume that you are guilty, so for that reason unless you
give them your name, it will not be given out.
    Mr. Friedman. I would like to say, sir, that I think the
committee is doing a wonderful job and I hope you continue to
do so.

  TESTIMONY OF ELBA CHASE NELSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
                       HAROLD I. CRAMMER)

    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
    Mrs. Nelson. I do.
    Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
    Mr. Crammer. Harold I. Crammer, of Witt and Cammer.
    Mr. Cohn. May we have your name?
    Mrs. Nelson. Elba Chase Nelson.
    Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
    Mrs. Nelson. Winter, New Hampshire.
    Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
    Mrs. Nelson. The address is Hillsboro Post Office.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you an organizer for the Communist party?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
    Mrs. Nelson. It is my privilege to decline to answer under
the Fifth Amendment.
    Mr. Cohn. If you feel a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you?
    Mrs. Nelson. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you in 1936 an organizer for the Communist
party in New England?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you at that time know a man by the name of
Haym Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us whether or not you know Dr.
Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question.
    The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Yamins was the
liaison between the Signal Corps and MIT and other labs on
radar until this investigation started.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins spend time in your home on
frequent occasions between 1936 and 1949.
    Mrs. Nelson. I invoke the Fifth Amendment and I decline
answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins attend Communist party meetings at
your home in New Hampshire?
    Mrs. Nelson. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the
same grounds.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you present at meetings attended by Mr.
Yamins and Dr. Miriam Udins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard Mr. Yamins discuss classified
radar material?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Has he discussed that in the presence of members
of the Communist party?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you seen Mr. Yamins recently?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for the information. One
other question; I assume you will decline to answer it. Isn't
it a fact that your home was used as headquarters for Communist
cell meetings at which certain members of the Signal Corps
discussed the work they were doing?
    Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say
that I know absolutely nothing about Fort Monmouth. I had never
heard of the town, didn't know where it was located until I
read it in the newspapers.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about Mr. Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about any of the men
working in the Signal Corps Laboratory?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer. As I said, I had never
heard of Fort Monmouth or Evans Laboratory before I read it in
the newspaper.
    The Chairman. You had never heard Yamins mention the
laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You just got
through telling us you had never heard the name Fort Monmouth
or Evans Laboratory, so we can ask you some questions.
    Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else in your home
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth?
    Mrs. Nelson. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
    Mrs. Nelson. Very sure.
    The Chairman. I want to tell you for your benefit that we
have evidence to the contrary so you will be fully protected
and can't claim at some future time that you were trapped into
this.
    Having that information, will you tell us again that you
never heard Yamins or anyone else mention Evans, the Evans
Laboratory or Fort Monmouth? Is that correct.
    Mrs. Nelson. Will you repeat that.
    The Chairman. Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else ever
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth? By Evans I refer to Evans
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth.
    Mrs. Nelson. I want to repeat that I have never heard of
Fort Monmouth until I read it in the newspapers.
    The Chairman. What is the answer to my question? Yes or No?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Did you ever see any material brought into
your home by anyone either stamped secret, confidential or
restricted?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Did you ever hear radar discussed in your
home?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    The Chairman. Are you on the payroll of the Communist party
as of today?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. Were you a Communist in 1950?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    Mr. Jones. Mrs. Nelson, if anyone stated to the contrary
that Professor Yamins had discussed radar material and
information in your home, would they be lying?
    Mrs. Nelson. They would be lying, sir.
    The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself
under subpoena. We may want you later. We will give your lawyer
sufficient notice.
    Mrs. Nelson. I would like to say to the committee, I wasn't
served with the subpoena until yesterday morning at 9:30 and I
live over three hundred miles from New York and my husband is
ill. I would like a little more notice, although I see no
reason why I was called here in the first place.
    The Chairman. May I have the record clear at this time that
apparently you weren't found by the marshal up there until
yesterday, but you had notice a week ago that you were being
called and made a statement to the press at that time about it.
If the marshal can't find you, if you absent yourself from your
home, that is not the fault of the committee.
    Let me ask you this?
    Is it correct that you made a statement to the papers in
regard to being called?
    Mrs. Nelson. I did not make a statement. The reporter
called me and informed me I had been subpoenaed.
    Do you imply that the marshal was at my home trying to
serve the subpoena?
    The Chairman. The marshal had been looking for you a week.
    Mrs. Nelson. I beg your pardon. You are absolutely
incorrect. I was home. I want to make that very clear.
    The Chairman. Ask the officer to remove the witness.
    Mrs. Nelson. I can walk.
    The Chairman. We will notify your counsel when we want you
back here for public sessions.

                TESTIMONY OF HERBERT S. BENNETT

    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
    Mr. Bennett. I do.
    The Chairman. Your name is Herbert Bennett?
    Mr. Bennett. Herbert S. Bennett.
    Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed Mr. Bennett?
    Mr. Bennett. Dynamic Electronic Corporation of New York.
    Mr. Cohn. And do they do any government work there?
    Mr. Bennett. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Any classified work?
    Mr. Bennett. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. For what branch of the service?
    Mr. Bennett. We have classified contracts with the U.S. Air
Force.
    Mr. Cohn. Does any of it involve radar?
    Mr. Bennett. Not radar as such, no. It is electronic
communications would be closer I think.
    Mr. Cohn. How long have you been working there?
    Mr. Bennett. Since March 1952.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work before that?
    Mr. Bennett. Signal Corps. Electronic Warfare Center, Fort
Monmouth.
    Mr. Cohn. How long were you working at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Bennett. Since August 1950. I am not sure of the month
but it was 1950.
    Mr. Cohn. What did you do before that?
    Mr. Bennett. I was an engineer at the U.S. Air Force,
Watson Laboratories in Eatontown, New Jersey.
    Mr. Cohn. How long were you at Eatontown?
    Mr. Bennett. Since June 1946.
    Mr. Cohn. And where did you work before June of 1946?
    Mr. Bennett. In the Armed Service Signal Corps from October
1942 until June of 1946 except for terminal leave which
actually ended in August.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you station at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Bennett. For a period of, I think, approximately
February 1943 until May 1943.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you from 1940 to 1942?
    Mr. Bennett. That would probably cover three phases, I
imagine. I was with New York Signal Corps Procurement District
from March 1939 and I think that whole outfit moved to
Philadelphia.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you ever part of Signal Corps Inspection?
    Mr. Bennett. I was in the New York Signal Corps Procurement
Division, Inspection Division.
    Mr. Cohn. During the time you were working in the Signal
Corps did you have access to classified material?
    Mr. Bennett. Certainly while in the service.
    Mr. Cohn. Is there any point which you were not cleared for
classified material?